up to 0.358 inches and dubbed it the poor mans magnum.. The Big Game Hunting Blog is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.ca, Amazon.com.au, and other Amazon stores worldwide. The .358 Norma Mag. [2], While a few gun writers in the 1960s criticized the .351 SL for being inadequate as a deer hunting round, and the round's power has sometimes been compared to a .357 Magnum carbine load, the .351 SL's killing power falls somewhere between the .30-30 Winchester and the .35 Remington. If the .35 Rem. An M1 carbine design adapted to a rimless .357 Magnum round would be pretty neat but I can't see there being a big market for it today. My pick by far is the 30 carbine for all the previous listed reasons. Every time I use it I ask myself, Whats not to like? Beats me, but nobody liked it enough to keep it in production. Area Code: 715. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbine then save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. IMO, any of them would be a good choice. The first trigger housing used with an M1 Carbine was a modified Winchester M1907 trigger housing used in Winchester's first prototype submission to the Ordnance "light rifle" trials in August 1941. The .358 has 24 percent more energy at the muzzle than the .300 Win. Even the Standard gas operated semi auto rifle didnt sell well. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. The .35 Rem. .30-30 Win. vs. .35 Rem. - Caliber Battle | MeatEater Hunting Mag. They would probably still be around today. For more detailed ballistics information please refer to the exact round in question or contact the manufacturer for the pertinent information. Army Ordnance Major Rene Studler persuaded Winchester that the Winchester M2 .30-06 rifle, a design started by Ed Browning and perfected by Winchester engineers including Marshall "Carbine" Williams, could be scaled down for the .30 Carbine cartridge. Ballistics The Legend could certainly bring down an elk, but possible is not the same as ideal. If youre looking for a do-it-all cartridge, the .30-30 will likely serve you better. The .350 Legend goes for $1.15 to $2.30/round and the .30-30 Winchester anywhere from $1.15 to $4.70/round. The result was the M1 carbine.[7]. But these arent normal times. Unfortunately, finding .401 or .351 Winchester ammo is also pretty difficult as well, though its still possible to find the odd box of factory ammunition and the necessary reloading supplies from places like Buffalo Arms. 30 Carbine vs 5.56: Beloved Military Rounds | The Daily Bell Mossberg .22 LR models 340 340A 340B 340M 342 342K 344 344K 346K 346B 350 350K 351 352 352K 353 Rifl Winchester mod. As of 2017, Hawk bullets still makes .351 jacketed expanding bullets with jackets of appropriate thickness.[7]. One way to think about this is as such: a foot-pound is a unit of energy equal to the amount of energy required to raise a weight of one pound a distance of one foot. The elder statesman of the deer woods, the .30-30 Win. In firearms with a blowback action like the Model 1903, the breech is not locked and depends on a balance between the cartridge pressure characteristics, the heavy breechblock, and a powerful recoil spring for reliable functioning. Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351 This was about as powerful as the original .30-30 Winchester load of a 160 grain bullet at 1,970 feet per second (1,379 ft-lbs of energy) and quite a bit more powerful than a .357 Magnum load. It is built on an aluminum- NO NYC, CT buyers please send us FFL or State Permit. It should come as no small comfort for any patriotic American to know that the countrys firearm industry is vibrant and productive, still faithfully serving the needs of armed citizens, law-enforcement officers and military personneljust as it has for more than two centuries. In 1968 the 600 Magnum was replaced by the Model 660 Magnum, which featured a 20-inch barrel, but it was never a big seller, and Remington dropped the rifles. Its often thought that if they had it would have gained popularity over the .338 Win. Commonly known asthe Model 07, the Model 1907 rifle was also popular for law enforcement use. Thanks for your support. Even the military wouldnt use semi or full auto ( hand held) fearing soldiers would shoot too much ammo. Youre also more likely to find a rifle in .30-30, especially in the used market. SMOOTH PATINA METAL. A failed product is often said to be ahead of its time, which is usually just a polite way of saying nobody wanted to buy it. The .30 Carbine was developed from the .32 Winchester Self-Loading used in an early semi-auto sporting rifle. The .358 Win. the 32 was the hardest one to come up with, There are a lot of 351 out there and some very nice ones, Thanks for this article and the information in it. with a 30 round magazine! ", Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II. That is to say, .30 M1 Carbine bullets travel 2.3 times the speed of a 737 airplane at cruising speed, while .30-30 Winchester bullets travel 2.7 times that same speed. Heavy, slow, not very accuate, and now days ammo is next to impossible to find. I wonder if any gunsmith has made a AR 15 in 351 WSL? with a similar 180-grain bullet. The 10mm Auto semi auto pistols is being used to hunt deer and wild hogs, and it equals the 35 WSL ballistics. Since .22 caliber cartridges of that time period were not loaded to uniform ballistics, Winchester specifically developed the .22 Automatic Winchester Rimfire cartridge for reliable functioning in the Model 1903 rifle. It's original load is already moving at the speed and with the energy of a 30 carbine but with a 70gr heavier bullet Click to expand. factory load is a 250-grain Oryx bullet listed with a muzzle velocity of 2723 f.p.s. Early Semi-Automatics: Winchester's First Self-Loading Rifles Seller: cma959. EARLY GUN SERIAL NUMBER 194. The ammunition situation is a little better than the rifles. Equipped with 10 round magazine to go along with a slightly beefed up forened and buttstock to resist cracking, many Model 1907 semi-auto rifles were acquired by many police departments to serve alongside the Thompson submachine gun in .45 ACP in an effort to give their officers more firepower. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbinethen save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. Would certainly make things easier, from a tooling standpoint. Finally, they are on the heavy side at 8.5 pounds. Having owned several different rifles chambered in .351 WSL and .401 WSL over the years, I can attest to the fact that they are quite good at what they were designed to do: cleanly take North American deer and black bear size game when hunting in close cover where quick shots might be called for. I spent it all on guns and ammo. The 32 Winchester Self-Loading Cartridge is the parent case for the 30 Carbine. Overall, the .30 Carbine is a round that is historically important, but not terribly ballistically relevant to the modern discussion of personal defense weapon ammunition. Apr 21, 2013. appearance wise, i am partial to the Winchester M94. What is the going price of an original box of 351 ammo. However, the calibers available in the Model 1905, the .32 Self Loading (.32 SL) and the .35 Self Loading (.35 SL), were realistically pretty underpowered for satisfactory use on big game. Hornady Critical Defense: 1990 fps. Accuracy was always regarded as fair at best from Model 07 carbines. GI#: 102196509. 200-grain bullet to almost 2500 f.p.s. With overall 50% blue mixing to dark brown patina. Winchester 1907 I believe was made in 1908 semi automatic 351 caliber has a couple of clips with it. The .358 Norma Mag. in its NoslerCustom line with a 225-grain Partition bullet at 2550 f.p.s. I couldn't even begin to think of a reason to use such a bastard case/bullet size as the 351. The same probably goes for the AR-15 when they think of a semi auto police patrol rifle. Lots of people seem to enjoy beating their head against a wall. A Poignant Historical Reminder, The Winchester Model 1907. Unfortunately for Winchester, the Model 10 was not a good seller and the company only produced about 20,000 produced before dropping it from production in 1936. LENGTH OF MAGAZINE 5.99? OVERALL LENGTH 38? The .223's 200 yard energy is given as 603 ft. The 35 WSL fired a 180 gr SP at 1390 fps, this duplicated the 38-40 ballistics. In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. .351 s.l. Made from premium-grade, vegetable-tanned leather, the Burdette Custom Holsters Detective SA-35 holster is a custom outside-the-waistband (OWB) model for the Springfield Armory SA-35 semi-automatic pistol. The company has chambered several rifles in the cartridge including models in bolt-action, pump-action and semi-automatic. This makes sense: the Legend was developed specifically for use in Midwestern whitetail states that require straight-wall cases. Winchester Model 74 semi auto .22 short. Prices have skyrocketed on the Models 05, 07, 10. .30 M1 Carbine vs .30-30 Winchester Ammo Comparison - Foundry Outdoors GunGeek # 7867163 07/03/13. I have a .356 Win. Mag. We offer cheap ammo and bulk ammo deals on the most popular ammo calibers. The .30 SL was an entirely conservative design, which hastened development considerably. Shortly before World War II, the U.S. Army started a "light rifle" project to provide support personnel and rear area units a weapon with more firepower and accuracy than the standard issue M1911A1 .45 ACP handgun and half the weight of the standard issue M1 Garand .30-06 rifle or the .45 ACP Thompson submachine gun. These were theWinchester Self-Loading (WSL) rounds, including .32 WSL, .35 WSL, .351 WSL, and .401 WSL. That load actually produced 2825 f.p.s. True .30 M1 Carbine and .30-30 Winchester ballistics information can vary widely from the displayed information, and it is important to understand that the particular characteristics of a given round can make a substantive difference in its true performance.